“If you’re always pointing at your team as the problem, it might be time to turn that finger back at yourself.” – Rachel Leigh
Brief Summary/Overview:
What happens when you realize your team isn’t meeting expectations? As the old saying goes, “If you can’t change people, change your people.” But what if the first person who needs to change… is you?
In this episode of The Leadership RaDar, we’re tackling a tough leadership truth: before deciding your team isn’t cutting it, take a look in the mirror. We dive into the fine line between giving employees the support they need and recognizing when it’s time to let them go. Plus, we break down how to shift old leadership habits, set clear expectations, and create a culture of accountability—without micromanaging or making knee-jerk decisions.
Listen in to hear personal stories about leadership missteps, the power of emotional neutrality, and why repairing relationships is just as important as raising the bar.
Key Takeaways:
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- Understand why the leader must change first before expecting team transformation
- Learn the art of emotionally neutral feedback that actually gets results
- How to recognize when you’re holding onto outdated narratives about team members
- Practical communication strategies that break through resistance
- The neural science behind lasting behavioral change
Timestamps:
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- 0:00 – Welcome!
- 2:15 – Darren’s dad joke (Rachel may or may not approve).
- 4:30 – “If you can’t change people, change your people.” But what does that really mean?
- 8:50 – Are YOU the problem? Leadership self-reflection 101.
- 14:30 – The emotional neutrality challenge: Giving feedback without the drama.
- 20:45 – Raising standards: How to bring your team along instead of replacing them.
- 27:10 – The danger of unspoken expectations.
- 33:50 – Repairing relationships: Why it’s not enough to just say you’ve changed.
- 40:30 – The one-degree shift: How small leadership changes make a big impact.
- 47:15 – Final thoughts: Leadership is learned, not innate—so invest in it.
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Transcript
Rachel
All right, welcome everybody to The Leadership RaDar. I’m Rachel Leigh, the COO and executive coach for the Kanthal Group. And this is our fearless leader, Darren Kanthal. We are here today to talk about, “If you can’t change people, then change people.” But before we dive into that, I have two announcements to make. This is very important, so everybody listen up.
If you watched our last live episode, there was a little disagreement about the appropriateness of our infamous dad joke. For those who have been watching and following, I want you to know that Darren has been through sensitivity training. From now on, it’s totally family-appropriate dad jokes.
Darren
I don’t remember agreeing to that.
Rachel
Then you weren’t listening.
Darren
I don’t remember agreeing to that exactly.
Rachel
You did agree to that. We had a very in-depth conversation and used our skills, and we agreed. Anyway, all that to say, we had to use our leadership skills. Now, number two, we have an announcement to make. We have the Leadership Accelerator Program kicking off in May. It’s for emerging or high-potential leaders, and it covers the wisdom, skills, and knowledge we’ve accumulated from working with high-level executives. Everything they wish they had known earlier in their careers, we’ve distilled into a six-month accelerator program.
If you’re interested, please head to our website, check it out, and schedule a call with us. We can discuss the details and answer any questions. If you have a leader you’re developing, consider our Leadership Accelerator Program—because it’s pretty awesome.
That was my pitch, and I’m not very good at it. I feel like I’m on a radio show. We need Steve Burrell. Where is he?
Darren
Yeah, right.
Rachel
Okay, joke time. Take it away.
Darren
What did the fish say when it swam into a wall?
Rachel
I know this one.
Darren
Damn. You’re taking the wind out of my sails. I can’t even tell a good joke now.
Rachel
It’s a great joke. Very appropriate for all ages.
Darren
Ha ha! It is old.
Rachel
All right, let’s talk about “If you can’t change people, change people.” This is a concept you learned. Who did you learn it from? Actually, it doesn’t matter—why don’t you set us up with a little backstory?
Darren
A client of mine told me this adage maybe two or three years ago. He learned it from an old leader of his. He was a CTO and was telling me about a time when he was a VP in technology. He was talking about his team underperforming, not meeting expectations, and not following processes.
He was, in my words, complaining to his boss. His boss responded with, “If you can’t change people, change people.” Meaning, if you can’t train them, if they can’t meet the standards, you have to let them go and replace them. That’s the essence of today’s conversation.
Interestingly, Rachel, as we were talking about it, I initially saw this as an external issue—about the team. But you brought up a great point about the internal aspect of change.
Rachel
Yeah, I wrote this down. This is what came up for me, and I think it’s front and center right now because I’m coaching a leader demonstrating these behaviors. Be very clear if you are the one who needs to change.
If it’s constantly your team, if it’s always everyone else, that’s probably an indicator that the real issue is you. As a leader, the first thing you need to do is look at yourself. That’s a big part of what we talk about in leadership—recognizing when you need to raise your own standards and making sure you bring others along.
Darren
That reminds me of a profound moment in my career. You’ve heard this story before. Growing up, the way we resolved conflict in my house was by yelling. I didn’t scream and yell in corporate America, but I had that same aggressive conflict resolution style. I used to call it my “New York” attitude. Some leaders called it passion and enthusiasm, but really, it was just me being aggressive and unproductive.
Around age 33, I was let go from a job where I was otherwise performing well—but I wasn’t behaving well. I literally called my mom crying because, for the first time, I realized that in every single one of my stories, the only constant was me. I hadn’t changed. I was the same guy with the same chip on my shoulder, getting the same outcomes—wearing out my welcome and getting let go.
Until I changed my mindset, my behaviors, and how I resolved conflict, nothing changed. That’s what I take from what you’re saying.
Rachel
Yes, exactly. If you don’t evolve as a leader, you’re just going to repeat the same cycle. You’ll hire the same type of person, have the same problems, and end up thinking, “Well, I’ll just let them go—it must be them.” And that cycle repeats.
You have to be hyper-aware of your role in this. Now, let’s say you do raise your standards—what happens next?
Darren
Hahaha. I get annoyed by overused phrases, but “What got you here won’t get you there” is actually relevant here. As leaders evolve, the people who were aligned with them at one level need to rise with them. If they don’t, they can’t come along. If someone isn’t willing or capable of rising, they have to go. Otherwise, you’re carrying dead weight.
Rachel
There are at least two pathways here. Yes, you might need to let them go if they can’t or won’t rise to your standards. But as a leader, you’re also responsible for helping them improve—keeping them involved in conversations, being transparent about expectations, and making sure they have the tools and resources they need.
You and I have even had this happen. I’ll be thinking about something for months, working through my thoughts, and then I’ll suddenly drop it in your lap like, “Boom!” And you’re like, “Give me a second to catch up!” Some leaders do this too, then get frustrated and think, “Well, clearly they can’t keep up—I’ll just replace them.” And sometimes that is the right move.
Darren
There’s another part to this from my days in HR. Leaders would come to HR and say, “We have to fire Rachel.” And we’d ask why. “Where’s the documentation?” None. “What conversations have you had with Rachel about her performance?” None. “What training have you provided?” None.
So often, leaders jump from an employee being fine to suddenly needing to fire them—without giving them the chance to improve. What’s often missing is clear communication, constructive feedback, and an actual plan for growth. If you never tell an employee, “Here’s where you’re falling short, here’s what needs to improve, and here’s what happens if it doesn’t,” then you haven’t really done your job as a leader.
Rachel
Mm-hmm.
Darren
There’s more I want to say, but I’ll stop there.
Rachel
What came up for me when you were talking about delivering that type of feedback is emotional neutrality, which is really difficult as human beings. Whether we like it or not, most of us operate based on our emotions. Even if we think we’re evolved and emotionally regulated—listen, you’re human, okay? You’re going to have emotions.
Darren
Mm.
Rachel
So what I see as an opportunity is to really look at how you’re giving feedback. Make sure it’s based on facts—not your interpretation, not how you’re feeling that day, not because they pissed you off by doing a project a certain way. None of that emotional drama that you might go home and vent about to your partner or friends. It has to be delivered with emotional neutrality. That’s a skill set for a good leader—to focus on the facts, not the character, unless it’s truly a character problem.
Which brings me to what we talked about this morning: emotional neutrality also helps move from what we call the old story to the new story. What does that mean? You and I have had to create this in our relationship every time we evolve personally. Are you on your phone?
Darren
I’m taking a note.
Rachel
I’m a little edgy today. All right, I’m not being a very good leader. What was I saying?
Darren
Clearly.
Darren
Neutrality. An old story, new story.
Rachel
We’ve had to create this, we’ve evolved, and we’ve raised our standards. We teach this to our clients too—when you raise your standards, your new narrative and perspective have to align with that new story. If you’re delivering a message, and let’s say your employee or direct report is making the change. As the leader, are you still judging them through your old narrative, old story, old feelings? Or are you doing the work to, as you say, repair your perspective of them and see them in this new light? You can’t keep punishing them if they’ve changed. It becomes your obligation as a leader to manage your own emotions and change the lens you view them through.
Old story, new story.
Darren
All right, I want to comment on that. And to appease your brain, I have a note here I want to talk about—it’s not exactly relevant, but that’s okay. Part of this repair concept was something my therapist taught me last year. I see it as a triangle or a continuous cycle with three parts.
There’s the relationship, the rupture, and the repair. That’s the cycle. My therapist explained that many relationships experience rupture but bypass repair, jumping straight back into the relationship without closure, understanding, or enough apology and forgiveness. It’s a half-assed repair.
Rachel, your point this morning was that some leaders change their standards and expectations but still hold onto preconceived opinions of certain people. Even when those people improve, the leader remains stuck in the old story, unwilling to repair that perception.
Rachel
Yes.
Darren
It’s like that person can never win in your eyes. No matter what they do, you always see them as underperforming or not good enough. Repair is multifaceted. When there’s real rupture, there needs to be apology and forgiveness. But there also has to be moving on—not forgetting, but moving past it.
If you forgive someone, you’re saying, “Okay, maybe you wronged me. I understand you’re sorry, I accept the apology, and now we move on.” We don’t hold on to all that stuff. I mean, I guess we do sometimes, but the main point is not to. The same applies to new standards—if I raise the standard and you meet it, then I have to hold you in that new story.
Rachel
Which is part of a leader’s new standard. Yep. Leadership has so many layers, which is why it can be challenging if you’re trying to figure it out on your own. When you’re in it, you’re too close to see the bigger picture.
Darren
Correct.
Rachel
You don’t have that 10,000-foot view. Leadership is about evolving, and it doesn’t matter what level you’re at—there’s always room for growth. That’s why these conversations matter. If a leader takes just one thing from this, it could be old story vs. new story. It could be about raising your standards. It could be about sharing wisdom instead of hoarding success. I wrote a whole post on hoarding success secrets—it’s garbage, but people do it. So let’s talk about…
Darren
Hold on, if you’re about to segue, I want to come back to my note that you were so upset about.
Rachel
I wasn’t upset, just a little triggered based on our personal relationship.
Darren
Fair enough. What’s that book we listened to? The two military guys—Extreme Ownership?
Rachel
Extreme Leadership?
Darren
One of those. It’s written by two military guys who lived through war. The main theme is that no matter what happens to your team, as a leader, you are ultimately responsible. Period. No debate.
We’ve been talking about changing people—if you can’t help your team evolve to your standard, then terminate them. That’s the essence of it, right? But the deeper truth is that for a team to change, the leader has to change first and model those new behaviors.
I know I’m repeating myself, but here’s what matters most for leaders if they want their team to grow with them:
Set clear expectations. Leaders do this every year with goals and initiatives. Whether it’s part of a three- to five-year plan or an annual target, there’s always something bigger to accomplish.
Set the standard. It’s not just about what we’ll achieve but also the quality. Some leaders micromanage and tell people how to do things instead of letting them figure out the “how.” That’s a pitfall. But there still needs to be a clear standard—like if we’re building a house, and all four walls are crooked, it’s obviously not up to code.
Engage conflict. This is huge. I see it at every level, from CEOs down. Conflict doesn’t mean confrontation; it means constructive debate, feedback, and performance evaluations—formal or informal.
People need to know how they’re performing. Period. One of the biggest problems is that leaders are often unwilling to say, “Rachel, you’re not meeting expectations.”
Rachel
Why do you think that is?
Darren
They don’t know how to say it neutrally. Their emotions are heightened, so their communication becomes heightened, too. Instead of staying neutral, they avoid saying anything at all.
Another issue is an overemphasis on empathy—“I don’t want to hurt Rachel’s feelings. I really like Rachel, so I don’t want to tell her.”
And then there’s the whole “you’re better than nothing” mindset.
Rachel
Who?
Darren
Like, “I don’t have the headcount. It takes too long to replace you. You’re performing one critical task well, so I’ll tolerate the other stuff that’s not great.” It’s short-term thinking that leads to long-term pain.
Rachel
Oof, yes.
Darren
That’s why people don’t give honest feedback. But one solution? A talk track.
If you don’t know what to say, plan it. My go-to:
“Rachel, I need to have a difficult conversation with you. I know you need time to process, so we’ll talk today, and I’ll answer your immediate questions. Then we’ll check in again tomorrow.”
That way, the person has time to reflect instead of reacting in the moment.
Rachel
That’s key—removing emotions from the equation. Writing it out helps. Ask yourself, “If I wasn’t judging them, what would I say?” If you can’t do that, go back to the facts. You can have lots of feelings about facts, but facts are facts. If you try to argue with them, good luck. It’s just not useful.
What you’re saying also ties into creating clear standards that drive performance. Leaders need clarity—first for themselves, then in how they communicate those standards. And in my experience, communication is the hardest part for leaders.
Darren
Yes, and for life in general.
Rachel
For anyone! It doesn’t matter if it’s with your spouse, kids, or employees—communication is hard. No one teaches us how to do it well.
We don’t go to school and learn, “Here’s how to have productive conversations, resolve conflict, and stay emotionally neutral.” There’s so much we aren’t taught.
For example, the way you were taught to communicate was to yell and scream. I was taught to ignore everything—just stick my head in the sand and pretend it would all go away.
Communication habits run deep. They come from long-standing personal histories. But they can be learned. That’s the point—we can learn to communicate differently.
And as a leader, you have to. You need to be adaptable because every person requires a different communication approach.
Darren
Yeah, I was just thinking about myself here for a moment.
All right, so what did I have to change? My old way of being was to seek out confrontation because I wanted to argue and debate. And the reason I wanted to argue and debate was because my insecurity, my judge, told me that for me to be worthy, I had to be right. And in order for me to be worthy, you had to admit that I was right. I thought I was a great debater because I had strong points.
When I got triggered—when I got a shitty email, or you disagreed with me in a meeting—I was on the attack immediately. The first change I had to make was not to engage in those debates. I remember doing that work, feeling that familiar rage in me. I would sit on my hands, take notes, and write out what I was feeling. I would tell myself, “You’re about to step in a pitfall,” and I cursed at myself a lot. “You’re going to mess this up if you open your mouth. Shut up.”
A lot of times, it was really about applying the 24-hour rule. That was a real change. And part of what you were saying a minute ago—yes, you can teach old dogs new tricks. However, the old dog is still the old dog, right? You and I are working through some of this stuff with me. I have great moments, and then I revert back to old behaviors. I get snappy, lose my temper, and then have to be even more thoughtful about the changes I’m trying to make.
Rachel
Everybody has longstanding neural pathways and lived experiences—if I speak this way, then this happens. So, from a human protective mechanism, we all go through life figuring out how to keep ourselves emotionally, physically, mentally, and psychologically safe.
We’ve done that by being the brilliant people we are. I always say, have a lot of compassion for yourself. If you’re a leader thinking, “Oh my God, that’s me, that’s me,” don’t use it against yourself. Recognize that you created that pattern because it was the safest way to survive, especially when you were younger and didn’t have the tools, mentoring, skills, or cognitive functioning you do now as an adult.
So, grace. Don’t use it against yourself. Just acknowledge, “That doesn’t work for me anymore. How do I reprogram those neural pathways?” Like you said, those were great examples.
You physically had to do something. If you look at EMDR and breaking the pathway, part of it is that you have an automatic pathway in your brain. If you do something physical, it forces that pathway to break and divert. That skill set—putting your hands under you, writing something out—is a great way to break that pathway.
It gives you a moment to pause. If you look up “the pause,” it’s about reevaluating so you can respond differently. That’s how you change neural pathways—through repetitive change, over and over, until it becomes your new normal. It’s possible. People have a profound capacity to change.
Rachel
I know we say you can’t change people, people don’t change, they are who they are, and I call complete and utter bullshit. People can profoundly change if they want to. So give them the opportunity and T.M. up.
Darren
That’s the opposite word, if they want to.
Rachel
If they want to, that’s the biggest thing. So you want your team to change. You want your partner to change. You want your kids to change. Right? If they don’t want to, you have to drop the reins.
Like you, we know we are working with somebody right now who is resisting change and refusing—not refusing, just resistant to looking at their selves in this situation. And because they feel they’re right, they’re not changing themselves. They feel out of control with everything outside of them, and therefore, if they feel out of control outside, what do you do? You tighten the reins.
You try to control people. You try to control what they say and how they act and what they do. And let’s control, control, control, control. It doesn’t work. Got to drop the reins and let them decide if they want to change or not.
And that, I think, all of that, everything we’ve just talked about, is the whole concept of, if you’ve done all these things that we’ve discussed here and then more so.
Okay, right, we’re just talking about a little bit of—we’re talking about like 1% of 100 things that you could—100% of what you could do to change. But at the end of the day, if somebody doesn’t want to change, they’re unable, or they’re unwilling, that’s when you need to change people as a leader. But you got to give them that runway, in my opinion, as a good leader.
Darren
Two things. One, you made the point earlier about if a leader listening is like, My God, I’m doing these things, or I need to change, I always revert back to the old De La Soul song, Three Is the Magic Number, meaning don’t try to do 100 things. I think identifying three things I’m willing to experiment with is the magic number.
Now granted, margin of error, three to five. If we try to change 10 things, we’re gonna do nothing. So, three things to do is, to me, the best.
Two, Frederick—hello, Frederick—had a great point talking about the talk track, which is also asking the person you’re talking to, whatever the talk track is on whatever point is, is getting a sense of, How did that go for you? Did I deliver this feedback in a productive way? How are you feeling? Anything you want to change?
Rachel
Mmm.
Darren
In his words, getting their buy-in. I think there’s also some validation, but yes, he’s right. There is buy-in.
Another point, and I learned this—I’m actually going to give me some credit for this because I remember when I was in corporate and I would be asking people who I didn’t have direct authority over. These were peers or folks in other departments, and I needed something from them.
And if I asked in a way that they were willing, they would often say, When do you need it by?
And I’d say, Well, what’s reasonable for you? What’s your workload like? What would be reasonable? And almost always, their timeframe was faster than my own.
So it’s—so part of the change for some people could, could literally be instead of dictating the rules or dictating this, that, or the other, is ask the person, When would be good for you? What’s reasonable? That always worked really well.
And there was one other thing that I lost. I’m not even going to pretend to find it.
So those are the few little added additions.
Rachel
Okay, I love that Frederick mentioned that because I think that’s so profound. Because what I believe happens in that situation—so when you are asking and you are clarifying and you are hearing your, whatever you want to report, employee, whatever you want to call them, feedback, they’re teaching you exactly how to lead them.
So instead of trying to figure out like, Do I lead this person? What do I do? I’m feeling so confused and frustrated, and why aren’t they getting it? If you just, quite frankly, stop talking and start asking—like, the talking is the asking.
Ask a simple clarifying question, which is a coaching technique. Ask the question, get the response, pay attention to their response.
Okay, so don’t just get the response because you want the answer. Get the response because you want them to teach you how to lead them. It makes your job so much easier. But you also got to be willing to listen and stop talking.
But it’s a great tool because you will—everybody will—and this is true across the board in all relationships.
Darren
It’s a great callout, the way you articulated that. It reminds me of a story. It was like a year or two ago, this person, this guy who worked at a company, and the company celebrated people—their birthdays, anniversaries, etc.
Well, this employee had some sort of social anxiety or something and specifically asked his leader, Please do not throw a birthday party for me. It’s going to freak me out, or whatever he said. The leader was, in essence, like, Well, too bad. This is what we do at our company.
I think they might have even thrown it as a surprise. The employee had their reaction—whatever it was. I don’t know if it’s fair to say freak out, but they had a reaction, went to their car, and, as I understand it, were so shaken by the experience that they called in sick for some period of days.
And during that time, or shortly thereafter, the company fired this person because they weren’t a cultural fit. And he sued.
And won.
So, one story related to—if you ask people what they need or what they want, or if they just tell you without you asking, honor it if it’s reasonable.
There is this data point—I don’t remember the exact one, but I think Gallup put it out some years ago—which said, One of the worst ways—one of the best ways to negatively impact engagement is to ask people what they think or what they want changed and do nothing with it.
And it was saying, that’s an engagement crusher.
So, one of those other things to avoid—real quick, because I can see your wheels spinning, Rich. Hello, Rich. He said he sometimes likes to ask his employees, How do you think you are performing?
Great question, Rich. Straight up.
Rachel
Great. Yep. There are so many great questions that leaders can, as you say, create as talking tracks—a list of great questions. And so, you don’t have to remember them, because when you’re in the moment, you’re trying to manage your emotions.
You’re trying to think differently about how to motivate, inspire, and communicate with this individual. You’re trying to manage your perspective. And as a leader—I don’t like to say this, but it is like parenting.
There’s a lot going on. It’s not just one thing. It’s not just like, We’re just having this conversation. It’s, like I said, lived experiences, previous retaliations, interpretations, belief systems, culture. There’s so much going on. That’s why it’s like a web.
When you’re trying to figure out how to lead individuals, ask great questions. And if you don’t know what those are, reach out to Darren and me. We’ve got a whole book right here of great questions.
I’m happy to share them with you because I don’t want to remember them all. I’m not great at that. I have to look in my book and be like, That’s a really good one for this situation.
So there’s a lot here, and we’re at time. So I’m just going to say—there’s a lot here.
Darren
Hmm.
Rachel
That reiterates how challenging leadership is—how much of a skill set it is and how nuanced and complex leadership can be.
And if you’re thrown into a leadership position and you’re not given the tools, number one, I’m really sorry that your company is doing that.
And number two—this is where we excel at The Kanthal Group. And that’s why I’m so passionate about this Leadership Accelerator program, because too many people are thrown into leadership, and they’re not given the tools.
And number one—yes, of course, it impacts the company. Okay, fine. Like, we do have empathy for the company, but it really impacts the individual.
And that’s the piece that I’m like, Well, why are we making people’s lives more difficult? Life is hard enough. So tee them up, set them up, get them going from the beginning because that will have a profound impact.
Like you say, we talk about cascading leadership. It will have a profound impact—up, down, sideways, the entire organization.
And it just makes your life easier as a leader if you have some support.
So that’s my plug to reach out if you have emerging or high-potential leaders, or upcoming leaders, or somebody that’s in a leadership position where they’re raising their hand and saying, Please help me.
So reach out to us about that. And we are here next week. I don’t even know what day it is.
Okay, we are here next week.
Okay, sorry—I did not clarify if you would like to share one last thing.
Darren
Yes. Yes. I have one last thing. This is a challenge.
No, no, that’s okay. I’m going to take the floor anyway.
This is a real-world example that is specific and general—of how when we, as the leader, change with one small little thing, we watch our team change.
I have coached many a micromanager who was the bottleneck for their entire team.
Rachel
Yeah.
Darren
The simple change they made was, when an employee came to them and said, Hey boss, how do I solve this problem?—the single change they made was, How would you suggest we go about solving this problem?
It took time. It wasn’t immediate. Three to six months is usually what it takes. But they changed their mindset, instead of solving the problem, to saying, How would you do it?
The employee then has a chance to let their leader know how they think.
The leader can then assess whether the approach is good, bad, or indifferent. They can course-correct as necessary.
And by the way, a lot of employees will surprise you with their creativity and empowerment.
And the leader grew, the team grew, the new standard was—the team could solve problems. And all of a sudden—well, not all of a sudden, but over three to six months, they were no longer the bottleneck.
So, a real-world scenario—if you find you are often solving your team’s problems:
Change your approach and simply ask, How would you do it?
Rachel
I know we’re at time, but that story reminds me of—I don’t even know where this came from, but I’m sure everybody has heard it, right?
If you’re a tractor—or sorry, if you’re a farmer, and you drive the tractor out to the field every single day to feed the cows, and you take the same path, same path, same path—you’re going to have this deep rut that you don’t even have to put your hands on the wheel anymore. It’ll just take you there and take you back.
What you’re saying in this—
I’m not thinking well today. I’m very slow.
At the beginning, it’s a one-degree shift. If that farmer turns the steering wheel just one degree—like your leader did—one question differently—a mile out, you’re going to be at a completely different place.
Does that make sense?
Darren
Yeah. I see it differently, but I have to go. Small degrees of change over the long haul are significant—evolution, change, risk, direction, etc.
Rachel
I agree. Good talk.
Rachel
Thank you. Yes. Thank you for bottom-lining, because I can’t bottom-line today for whatever reason.
I need a snack.
All right, we’ll see you all next Tuesday.
We’re talking about emerging leaders, values, and identity. So do not miss that one.
Bye.
Darren
Bye.
